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Author Topic: The Jaguar Community....The present and the future  (Read 4882 times)
doctorclu
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Posts: 187



« on: September 08, 2009, 05:44:31 am »

[This is a discussion started by Carmel Andrews on Atariage that I wanted to get some input on.  So though locked on Atariage, I asked if we could redirect the conversation here.   Original messages by Curt Vendel and myself attached for further reading.]

By: carmel_andrews
Posted Yesterday, 8:19 PM
   
Yes I admit i am inspired by Dr Clu's and curt's closed thread's, i am not trying to slight the Jaguar community, just trying to assertain where it is now and where it wants to be tomorrow, the next day etc

Lets have a frank and blunt discussion of what the issues are....be it downloading jaguar roms, emulation, the jaguar homebrew (software and hardware) and games scene etc etc

I am assuming that we are apparently intelligent adults and can have a constructive, intelligent and enlightening dialogue about the issues and concerns and ultimately the aspirations of the jaguar community, without getting into flamewars, insults and name calling etc...remember this thread and forum is viewable from outside atariage, last thing we want is people to think that we are childish adults that haven't learnt to grow up or progress beyond the school playground

Issues as i see it

Anti downloading of ANY jaguar games/roms etc

Anti emulation

Small market for selling/marketing jaguar games/hardware etc...i.e homebrew games/cf device/skunkboard etc

Very little co-operation/partnerships etc

I am sure there are other issues here but the brain is a little fried (been a long day)



Firstly lets agree one thing, we need emulation, why...it actually introduces more people to a given platform, even people that previously never owned or had/used a jaguar (or whatever emulation they're into)

Remember, atari only sold so many jagaurs (not the cars ofcourse) and apart from the ones that people are using or keeping, the only others that are out their to be had (from places like ebay/AA marketplace etc) are the remainder of what atari sold, which means that, not counting emulation users (since we do'nt like them yet) you are always going to have that many users and not ANY more then that (so if atari sold 2 million jaguar gaming systems, you will only ever have 2 million users, please note that figure is used as an example only)

That is why we need the emulation market, it introduces people to the platform (the jaguar in this case) and also introduces those users to the jaguar community, also if you have followed, like curt mentioned/suggested, the other atari flavours (forums) like 26/52/7800 and A8 etc, people are coming into those area's of atari not just through ownership of the physical hardware, but also through using emulators, and the more people use and download the emulators, it engenders more software and more hardware development on the systems (like the 26/52/7800 and A8 etc)
..i.e if you've seem emulators like atari ++ or atari800windows for instance, they don't just emulate the standard a8 setup (i.e standard 400/800/xl or xe) it also emulates various different ram upgrades, video upgrades (like vbxe), sound chip upgrades (like gumby/stereo pokey etc) high speed sio emulation (i.e usd/happy/xf551 and 815 in the case of atari++) and any hardware mod's upgrades that i failed to mention, it also supports all the various cartridge bankswtiching systems

i could go on about recent versions of Stella for the 2600, which also emulates various things including the numerous 2600 bankswitching systems as well as the recent innovation of CRT emulation (which i guess means it will display output as if you were playing it like a 2600 on a proper old school bulky telly)

Remember, these innovations and additional features on atari 8bit and other atari emulators would'nt be there if people were'nt interested in them, the fact that these emulators are widely used and downloaded means that people not only want these emulators, they also want to see what these additional features look like and do

Again if you refer back to what curt said in his post, about software support, if you have been following the A8 market in recent times you will notice that most games actually come out on emulation format first...examples of this are Yoomp, Jetboy, Jet Set Willy, Hobgoblin, Crownland etc et, also there was a post in the A8 section by Sikor putting all the games his publishing company had developed (including demo's) onto a emulation format CD

Now why would people want to put their work/programs etc on emulation format first, if they are so concerned about piracy

Simple...if the program is available for download FREE, what is there to pirate...what is the point of pirating a game/copying a game and trying to sell it (the copied/pirated version), if you can get it free...and like curt mentioned, they also produce versions of the same games in original media format (i.e disk or cartridge) and they still sell

Just remember, even markets like the A8, 52/7800/ST etc are as small (user/owner wise) or similar sized to the jaguar market, yet somehow these markets seem to have embraced and accepted emulation and the market that emulation represents, they know that without emulation and the emulation market they will only be able to sell their wares (mostly software) to the same 40 or 50 people each time (i know it's more then that but you, i am guessing understand my meaning) not a very good market to support is it, if you only want to sell to the same 40 or 50 people each and every time....that is why these markets have embraced and accepted emulation because it expands/extends the number and ammount of users/owners far beyond those that actually own the physical hardware, isn't that a BENEFIT to those platforms that actually embrace and accept emulation

At the end of the day, you people have a simple choice....do you want to sell your games/homebrews etc to the same 40 or 50 people each and every time....or like the other atari platforms/flavours are doing by embracing and accepting the emulation market...sell your wares to a much wider market...therefore engendering more profit/sales and as we know, more profits/sales means more games/homebrews etc...would'nt that be a benefit or add value to the jaguar market/scene

What do you people think....we can keep our head in the sand and ignore emulation, slag off people that download jaguar roms/emulators and only sell our wares to the same 40 or 50 people everytime...or we can embrace emulators (warts and all) and the market that emulators represent

After all, as you people have clearly pointed out, jaguar emulation is very poor, why do you think that is, all a jaguar emulator programmer has to do, it come onto a forum like atari age and there's your answer...you don't support the emulators....Pop quiz people, if you don't support the emulators then why should you expect the emulation to be any good, case in point being the likes of Atari ++, Atari800win, Stella for the 2600 etc, why do you think that these emulators are so good, simple because they are very close to how the actual physical hardware works, and why's that, because those markets have embraced and accepted those emulators and supporting them, therefore the programmers go back and make sure that these emulators not just come close to emulating the hardware but also supprt the various hardware embellishments that were available and are available on the physical systems being emulated...as i pointed out above)

Now i seem to remember way back when, there was a jaguar emulator available that also supported programming developemnt called JAGULATOR, can't remember who programmed it, but it was someone who also programmed N64 emulators, now seeming as though we need to make jaguar emulation better and also encourage more games to be programmed for the jaguar, why don't the jaguar community nominate this emulator as the standard emulator, but incorporate the jaguar features found in slightly better emulators like Project tempest and Virtual jaguar and also improve that emulation but within the Jagulator environment though, therefore you have a decent jaguar emulator that people will use and also as it has programming development within the emulation, encouraging people to program jaguar games and homebrews, all within one program
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 06:04:05 am by doctorclu » Logged
carmel_andrews
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2009, 04:40:25 pm »

Somewhat disappointed to see that this thread had to be moved somewhat, disappointed because I was hoping that we could have an intelligent and frank/honest discussion within one of the more popular atari forums, obviously that was not to be

Now I am not going to use this post to put down other atari forums etc, they all have their place within the atari collective/community but it does seem a shame that we can’t discuss the real issues/matters or concerns of the atari jaguar community/market within the very forum that curt’s, dr. Clu’s and my thread originated

As i said in private to the person concerned with closing the thread that whilst i respect and accept the fact that rules are there to regulate the forum in a fair and reasonable fashion, rules are also there to be broken, after all, if we all just stood there and accepted the rules as given/gospel, think about it for 1 moment, some of us wouldn’t be here, the concept of adam and eve wouldn’t exist and we would still be cavemen hitting the women folk and t-rex’s with our clubs or similar hitting implement

As we have to accept the fact that the jaguar community doesn't just have a problem, it has a disease and like any other disease, if you don't treat the disease with the rightr medication the disease will ultimately kill you, the only way the jaguar community will cure or rid itself of this disease is by taking the medication (i.e discussing the issues/concerns and matters that are causing this strife and coming up with solutions and resolving these issues by putting the provided solutions into some action) therefore curing the disease

And the real issues are, things like emulation, roms, downloading free jagaur games etc  and the loose affiliation the last two have with the ‘age old’ issue of piracy, as well as lack of co-operation/partnerships within the developer community in addition to any other matter that Dr. Clu and Curt touched on within their threads

If we can’t discuss the real issues then what’s the point of an or ANY atari jaguar forum, its a bit like the story i was told about the couple going to marriage guidence and the man in the marriage saying that i’ll do your marriage guidence thing but i will not discuss the sex or infidelity issue...makes you wonder what the point of going to the marriage guidence in the first place is if your not prepared or willing to discuss the real issues and  matters that are causing the strife

Now, i don’t know about you people but my attitude is, if we can’t and don’t discuss all the issues and the real issues that are causing this strife within the jaguar community/market, then we solve nothing, the problems and issues will still exist the jaguar community/market will simply tear itself apart and die

And ultimately by discussing the issues out in the open in an intelligent, frank and honest fashion, we are able to find or provide solutions and resolve these issues and matters, therefore putting an end to all this strife that has manifested and afflicted itself onto the jaguar community/market

And at the end of the day, the jagaur community is as much a part of the WIDER atari community as any other atari flavour/platform (i.e a8, 26/52/78 etc etc) as like any community we are all here to help eachother and show the world we are one community, not splintered or fractured in anyway, but if a certain group within that community prefer’s not to deal with or solve the issues or problems then that group will simply wither away and die and an atari community without the jaguar community isn’t an atari community it’s a fractured atari community

« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 04:55:35 pm by carmel_andrews » Logged
doctorclu
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Posts: 187



« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2009, 03:14:15 am »

Carmel, you bring up some good points.

There are those that say that Jaguar community started into it's current spiral when the Jaguar was discontinued as a platform as it was.  That would certainly make many bitter.

Some have said that when BSG received the community scathing that it did, that only inbittered hard working developers.   At that time we had JI-2 and then later Atariage.  When did we split?   JI-2 was a ok meeting spot.  Atariage was good.  But at some point an embittered TBird got himself kicked out of Atariage and so JS2 was built to commodate the exiled programmer and other friends.  And thus another faction made.  With that faction, Atariage became a clashing ground of ideas between what people think the Jaguar should be, want it to be, and the way the other game systems are presented normally on Atariage.

And so, in time, with so much conflict Atariage's free speech on the Jaguar forum was bolted down since the moderators did not rightfully find the Jaguar folk to have the privillages and freedoms that the other gaming systems have on Atariage.

So in time, FreeJag was formed to accomplish that.

It is my opinion that these two ideas of the Jaguar should have links on Atariage (to JS2 and FJP), and Atariage's Jaguar forum closed.

Maybe one day we will find a bridge between the two ideals, but for now, it is better that some people really stay away from some other people.  Smiley
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 03:27:07 am by doctorclu » Logged
carmel_andrews
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 07:59:20 am »

well I am someone that just lives for the present and explores the possibilities and opportunities that tomorrow represents

Perhaps if we just live for the present and leave behind the bad blood associated with the past the community and market might recover and start dealing with some of the issues/matters of concern

One idea would be to have a good long conversation on the issues/topics within atariage's chat room (or a chat room here, if one is incorporated), with representration from freejag, atariage and other atari jaguar related w/s's, the people behind the thread's closed within atariage and some of the moderators from the above mentioned sites to officiate but also to provide input and contribute to the conversation, so that we can discus the issues and concerns that plague this community/market, provide solution or resolve problems and ultimately get the jaguar community back into the widder atari community

The text from the conversation/discussion had within the chat room, should be made into an article that should be posted on all jaguar related websites, so that we can move on and become a better community/market (article as in thread/discussion topic)
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doctorclu
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 04:35:46 pm »

I've invited all that were in the closed threads to come talk here.

Right now having all people from all Jaguar factions is not a good idea.  I think it might be again one day, but just not right now.   I think for now people just need to cool off for a while.
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carmel_andrews
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 10:23:37 pm »

Factions....ewww, rather reminds me of why iraq is in the sh!t that it's in at the moment (and that's without the Americans/British etc trying to hold the peace...god help us when the US/Uk etc pull out)

I am beginning to think that the jaguar thing isn't just a problem, it's a Skism or split, just like what happened when Henry VII of england married Anne Boleyn and created christianity's first skism by excommunicating the british church from rome and creating anglicanism/church of england

I only hope that the objectives of this site are achieved and engender more members and foster a new dawn for the jaguar community, otherwise there won't be a jaguar community to be a part of
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