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Author Topic: A message to the Jaguar Community  (Read 24792 times)
Cyrano Jones
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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2009, 11:26:32 am »

Well, I've been busy all week and I'm just catching up with things here.

First of all I'd like to welcome Curt to freejag.  I've read his message on AtariAge, and regardless of if he believes me or not, reboot was created with much of what he has said in mind.  I would have replied on AA, but the thread was locked and Al has banned my account - and quite correctly I might add.  A civil exchange occured with Albert and I believe things are as they should be.  If, at some point in the future he'd like to unban us (reboot) we would be more than willing to share and participate there again, but that is not our call, nor anyone else other than Albert's, to make.

Also, currently if you'd like support for the D-Bug ULS and other patches, please visit our forum, because obviously neither myself nor GGN can respond on AtariAge at the present time.

We set out to develop a free game, in parts (WIP), and give out source code. The project looks cancelled right now, but I intend to complete my promise to the community and release the source code and all assets in the future.It'll take a while to get it in a state where it's useful to other people though.  What I can do quite quickly is release the source code for the pause mode game. I hope to get that online for everyone in the next week or so.

The initial boot logo (calvin and Hobbs) was much more of a tribute to the old Atari ST demo "The Cuddly Demos" than anything else. I'd have hoped there would have been more of a sense of humour in the Jaguar comminuty, but alas I was wrong there too.
Maybe we can work on that as well Smiley

And finally I'd like to thank Curt for giving us the Tempest 2000 source code.

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Fadest
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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2009, 11:31:33 am »

Oh... Many thanks Curt, I was looking for 2 gnu C libraries file since yesterday, and I just found them in one of the zip file in your jagfiles directory.
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kgenthe
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2009, 04:09:41 pm »

Well if its $40 because you need to buy a copy of Jag Extremist that Jason spent a lot of time putting together and is selling a physical product, that is one thing
Not sure If I agree with selling someone elses IP for profit... perhaps there is more to it than I know. In any case, I never got up to 100 posts to see all of the JSII goodies, nor was I willing to shell out $$$ for a lifetime VIP membership. But I guess that is neither here nor there. So to steer myself back on topic...

Welcome to the forums Curt! It's nice to see another long time jag fan join the forums. Judging by the T2K source, you have a wealth of treasures, as well as knowledge, to share. Thank you.
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doctorclu
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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2009, 04:33:09 pm »

Generally the way I've seen it done is this on the 7800, 2600, and other consoles.  A game designer will make a game available via rom that can be played.

Later they will release the actual game with cartridge, nice label, manual and all that.

This serves two purposes.  The cartridge release is generally very limited.  And there are those that would like to try the game, maybe not neccessarily buy it.  There are those that would buy it once they've tried it.

But overall I think there are too many people that want the real thing not to pick it up at some point.
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Zerosquare
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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2009, 10:21:14 pm »

I'd like to thank Curt again for everything he has done to help the Jaguar community.

There's also something I'd like to add ; I was originally going to post it on AtariAge, but since several "controversial" topics have been locked recently, I don't want to fuel the flames.

I'm a bit tired of hearing the generalization that "Jaguar developers" spend all their time fighting each other/can't do anything constructive/etc. No offense meant to you Curt : you're far from being the only one thinking that, and for someone not involved in those "fights" this interpretation makes sense.

But there is no such thing as "Jaguar developers" as a whole !
Some people speak as if they somehow represented everybody, and they want people to believe that their rather extreme stance on morality/piracy/profit/... is shared by every other developer.

This is far from the truth.
Remember back when the thorny subject of allowing ROMs to run on the JagCF was mentioned ? It caused quite a storm on AtariAge, so much that a moderator had to lock the topic. Seeing that discussing this matter in public was impossible, we (Jagware) invited developers into a private forum, so that they could discuss without being harassed. I won't repost what they said here since I respect their privacy, but I'll recap.

The end result was that almost all of them supported the idea of allowing ROMs, as long as there was a reasonable way to deny it in exceptional cases. We also discovered that a lot of developers don't argue with the vocal minority, not because they agree with them, but because they're tired of the nonsense and don't want to be involved in it.

So, please, the next time you see someone making threats, blaming others, demanding things hostilely... remember that they only represent themselves, NOT the Jaguar developers community as a whole. This includes Jagware, Reboot, Matthias Domin, Songbird, Starcat, and several others.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 10:24:38 pm by Zerosquare » Logged
carmel_andrews
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« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2009, 10:51:17 pm »

we need developers like cyrano J (CJ) and ggn...not to drive them away.....whatever you two guy's are working on, keep it up

Perhpas we need another developer platform that isn't a pc or mac....like that jaguar sector project i mentioned in some thread on AA

Keep up the good work curt....any more source code titbits you got....especially unreleased or proto/wip offic. atari c. titles just so that these games can actually see the light of day
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Mord
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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2009, 07:55:32 am »

Generally the way I've seen it done is this on the 7800, 2600, and other consoles.  A game designer will make a game available via rom that can be played.

Later they will release the actual game with cartridge, nice label, manual and all that.

This serves two purposes.  The cartridge release is generally very limited.  And there are those that would like to try the game, maybe not neccessarily buy it.  There are those that would buy it once they've tried it.

But overall I think there are too many people that want the real thing not to pick it up at some point.

It's a bit more important than just scarcity of a physical release however.

Frequently, especially on the 2600 releases, the sharing of roms happens throughout the development cycle with a wealth of valuable feedback getting back to the programmer of what should be tweaked to enhance the gameplay and enjoyment of the game. A very important thing imo. Smiley
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doctorclu
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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2009, 11:27:47 pm »

It's a bit more important than just scarcity of a physical release however.

Frequently, especially on the 2600 releases, the sharing of roms happens throughout the development cycle with a wealth of valuable feedback getting back to the programmer of what should be tweaked to enhance the gameplay and enjoyment of the game. A very important thing imo. Smiley


I agree that the playtesting is important.  We started to see that with Do the Same and Project One.  Both worked out quite well.

I think that is honestly where a lot of games need to go these days, into the hands of more playtesters for a more polished product.
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TheGrandPubaa
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 04:13:55 am »

Damn, Curt! You are the man, let me just tell you!
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I don't own a Jaguar anymore. Wanna give me a compelling reason to buy another one?
sh3-rg
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push the button today


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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2009, 05:02:26 pm »

Oh... Many thanks Curt, I was looking for 2 gnu C libraries file since yesterday, and I just found them in one of the zip file in your jagfiles directory.

Within hours of Curt's post of Tempest an active dev found stuff he needed to continue work on a jaguar project... the Free Jaguar Project can claim it's first victory in the openness of information right there.

Frequently, especially on the 2600 releases, the sharing of roms happens throughout the development cycle with a wealth of valuable feedback getting back to the programmer of what should be tweaked to enhance the gameplay and enjoyment of the game. A very important thing imo. Smiley

I think there's a lot to be said for that kind of approach, such as the excellent Adventure II on the 5200 - you could buy the game from Atari Age and you could download the binaries working up to the finished product (linky: http://cafeman.www9.50megs.com/atari/5200dev/AdventureII.html). Not every product is as well produced as that but it shows the concept works.

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_ __sh3/reservoir_gods^reboot___ _
carmel_andrews
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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2009, 03:06:51 pm »

Sorry, thought i'd copy this over from AA


what the jaguar community really needs...... A programming and hardware discussion repostiory (something along the lines of csdb for the commie 64) rather then handbags at 30 paces or pistols at 10 paces (gets pretty boring after a while)

After all, there is a game in all of us and also a hardware widget in some of us...perhaps such as repository would incentivise and motivate some people (including me and some others here) to thinking about the jaguar beyond just playing some good games

The more games programmers and tech people out there for the jaguar can only mean good things for the future of the market/community

One idea i did have (which might be beyond the scope and abilities of the jaguar community/market at the mo. and only because of certain matters/issues i won't get into here) was that the community/market nominate a prefered games programming langauage, somewhat alike the Batari basic (2600) or STOS +package extensions (i.e the graphic/game screen editing program, sprite editing thing and sound/music editing packages STOS came with)for the ST etc and make it into a jaguar games programming package, you could call it jagbas/basic or jaggame(s)bas/basic or whatever

It would be supplied on a cartridge (with all the stos alike package extensions) on the cartridge you'd have either a usb or ps2 connection for the keyboard (as the cursor would be controled by the jagpad) you would be able to save your data/program on one of those memory card things, i.e like the ones you use for a cammy phone or digi cam (as there would be a memory card connector/slot within the cartridge)

Just a thought (or at least my 2p's worth
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GroovyBee
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Busy bee!


« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2009, 04:12:06 pm »

Its a nice idea Carmel, but I think it would be a hard sell as proposed. However, if the "STOS games creator" software ran on a PC/Mac and fired up an emulator for testing/debugging it would be much better in my opinion. For final machine testing a cable link to the jag (using a cart like Skunkboard etc.) would be ideal.
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ggn
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Posts: 39



« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2009, 11:01:05 pm »

Well, only today we (me and CJ) were discussing the possibility of doing something along the lines of porting STOS to the jaguar or writing our own small compiler that creates a Jag executable. Like a small scripting language that takes simple commands and moves stuff around on-screen.

Here's my personal take on the subject (some jumbled thoughts really):

Yeah, I guess it might be cool to introduce higher-level tools to people with little or no programming skills, something like Game maker (link not working at the time of writing or Klik&Play. I guess people can get to grips with tools like these (or STOS) fairly easier than raw assembly.

(Oh, before I forget it, there's also the Removers C library which is a very commendable effort! Although that's not 100% relevant with the points I want to raise below)

So in one hand we have a potentially good amount of people taking their first steps at making a game (or whatever they fancy really) or experienced people producing fast prototypes of games.

Lately I've been eying some other scenes and discovered some game compos they hold. Most notably Ludum dare in which you get 48 hours to finish a game which its theme is dictated at the start of the compo (at Saturday morning Smiley). Another one worth mentioning is Klik of the Month Klub, where you have only two hours to make a game! Both these two sites have hosted some pretty interesting game concepts that are worth checking out.

(Yes, I'm well aware that these compos have been going on for years now but well, better late than never I think Smiley BTW I found both these sites from Auntie Pixelante's blog, a worthwhile site to go through!)

Let me state the downsides now (as always IMHO):

A dev tool like that could take months to develop. You know, porting STOS is not as straightforward as one might think, there are lots and lots of issues to solve, parts to recode, new stuff to implement, tons of things to debug... the list goes on as you see. And us developing a custom tool could take a fair while also, unless we cut lots of corners, and thus reduce its usability by a big factor, so people would be able to create very few things with it. Okay, history has proven that creative people can produce interesting stuff even with POS or limited hardware and tools -and not only on Jag-, and supporting such a tool might take an enormous amount of our (decreasing) free time, so we won't be able to concentrate on our own projects.

Another point is, what kind of stuff do we really want on the Jaguar? Do we really want a flood half-arsed, quickly thrown together prototypes that will probably never get finished? Or games featuring more or less the same stuff? (here I assume that we're going to write our own tool and not porting STOS) Do we want a flood of puzzle games on the Jaguar? (I'm referring to those since they're games that are relatively easy to program)

While it's true that Ludum Dare and Klik of the Month Klub have produced some excellent mini-games, they have also produced a big heap of mediocre stuff.

Finally, I just don't know beforehand what speeds a tool like that can offer. It wasn't very fun seeing STOS dropping frame rate after only a few sprites drawn on-screen.



After all this, it's my belief that the Jag community won't benefit too much from high-level tools. Since I think that even if we make such a tool it won't get used by lots of people or attract a flood of people to the Jag in a hurry, I simply don't find it purposeful enough. I'd rather see more people use the Removers' library and coding in C, or having a go at full asm rather than a limited tool.


Sorry if this doesn't make too much sense. Like I said, it's more a collection of thoughts than anything else Smiley
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GroovyBee
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Busy bee!


« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2009, 02:56:19 pm »

All valid points there ggn. I also think that the cost of jag carts needs to come down too. It's no use trying to attract new developers if they can't get their games out at a good price point.

I never used STOS back in the day, but from what I remember it was used to produce some interesting games. If a new BASIC was developed for the Jag you could place constraints on how many sprites it handled at once, what sizes they could be, how backdrops were handled, what controller types were supported etc. It would be up to developers to find ways of adapting their games to fit the model. Hopefully it would be flexible enough to prevent all games developed using the system from looking the same. If you look at the 2600 games being developed using batari Basic some people are using the limitations imposed by the language (and target machine) to very good effect.

If a new language was developed I wouldn't like to see it with a built in editor and sprite creator. If it could be integrated into Eclipse and allow building from make files it would also appeal to more serious developers too.
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doctorclu
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2009, 04:11:30 am »

Never heard of STOS.  What is that?

the OS for the ST?  Smiley
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