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Author Topic: A message to the Jaguar Community  (Read 16625 times)
Sauron
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Posts: 33


The Dark Lord


« on: September 05, 2009, 11:07:40 pm »

To All Jaguar Fans,

I created the Free Jaguar Project forum over a month ago with the help of several friends in an attempt to help open up the Jaguar community in ways that are explicitly mentioned in the Mission Statement and About This Forum posts on here. My intentions for creating this new community were nothing but good. This website was not created in order to destroy anyone, but in order to create a new ground where the community could essentially start over, without any of the animosity or vitriol that has plagued the Jaguar community for so long.

The short time this website has been in existence has indeed seen a few positive changes in the community. However, elsewhere in the community the hatred and vitriol has risen to levels that are simply harmful to the community and to everyone involved within it. For this reason, I am resigning as admin of the Free Jaguar Project forums and am also removing myself entirely from the Jaguar community.

I have been heavily involved with the Jaguar community for the better part of the last 12 years. In that time, I have been a heavy supporter of the Jaguar and its developers and have helped to organize 3 separate JagFest events. I also spent a brief time as a developer working on The Assassin for OMC Games, which sadly never saw the light of day beyond a couple of very early demos. I have also been a long-time moderator on AtariAge, and one of the few on there who has held any special interest at all in the Jaguar. Prior to my involvement with the Jaguar community, I was an ardent fan of the Jaguar during it's life of support from Atari and helped to bring in people who hadn't even heard of it before meeting me.

Over these years I have given all that I can to the Jaguar community and have asked for nothing. In the process, I have made a lot of friends but also a lot of enemies. I've been called every name in the book and have been openly disparaged just for standing up for what I believe in. Despite the fact that I'm bringing this up, this has never bothered me. I don't let anyone's opinion of me color what I will believe in and stand up for. What I cannot deal with, however, is when these attacks extend to other people with much less involvement, and for doing nothing better than for expressing opinions that match my own. I have seen too many people with whom I have friendships with that extend well beyond this community being driven away from it because of personal attacks.

Due to events that have occurred within the last several days, I can no longer sit back and watch more friends of mine become unwitting targets of hatred. I am fully removing myself from the Jaguar community and have resigned as the admin of the Free Jaguar Project. I will remain as a moderator on AtariAge, but will no longer have any involvement in the Jaguar forum there outside of official moderator capacities.

This is not an easy decision for me to make due to how much of myself I have invested in the community. However, my involvement with certain sections of the community has at least indirectly caused harm to people that has extended beyond simple words on a message board. This is something that I in good conscience cannot partake in any longer. I do not wish to publicly condemn anyone, but I do have a few parting thoughts to share with the community at large.

The Jaguar community can no longer afford to be divided in the manner in which it currently is. The hatred and animosity has continued to erode an already small fanbase, and will soon leave the Jaguar with few to no fans left if it continues unchecked. Regardless of people's opinions or stances in the community, it is imperative that those who remain learn to put aside their differences and learn to work together. A divided community cannot stand, and the Jaguar community has been divided for far too long.

There is also no way that the community can remain relevant in any way if the system itself is not opened up. I created this website with certain principles in mind, and these principles are what will truly allow the Jaguar to flourish. The constant lock-down against "piracy" on a dead system will only ensure that it remains dead. The Jaguar for a long time has not been a commercially-viable platform. The open development of free games, the development of a fully working emulator, and the OPENNESS of the developers to sharing and learning from each other is an absolute necessity. The Jaguar remains a laughingstock of the rest of the classic gaming community because of this lock-down, and will never be taken seriously in any manner until it is lifted.

One last thing. I would like to extend an apology to any and all individuals within the community who have ever been hurt in any way by actions of mine, either directly or indirectly. Again, I do not wish to publicly name anyone here, although those who have ever been affected in this manner will know who I am referring to. There are good and bad people within the community on whichever side of whichever issue that exists within it. People have to realize that this is simply a hobby, and when anyone has their feelings or their pocketbooks hurt by it in any way, it reflects very badly on the community as a whole.

My final plea to you all is this - Please drop whatever hatred and animosity you hold for anyone else in the community and learn to work together. If someone does not wish to work with others, let them be, and they will soon find themselves alone while the rest of the community will flourish without them. Continuing any of these stupid and senseless wars will do nothing but irreparable harm on everyone. One day, I would like to come back and find the Jaguar community to be a peaceful place to participate. For right now, though, I cannot participate in it any longer.

Sincerely,

Sauron / Overlord
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kgenthe
Jr. Member
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Posts: 70


WWW
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2009, 11:13:13 pm »

Sorry to hear that some people on the internet could be mean to the point of causing you to lose passion for the quirky little Jag. I hope this is temporary and you return in the future.
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doctorclu
Full Member
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Posts: 187



« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2009, 03:31:15 am »

Sauron took quite a pounding on JS2.

So did I, but really comes down to what you focus on.  They are not the Jaguar.  Loved the Jaguar long before they came along, and I will love it awards.
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GT Turbo
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Posts: 17


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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2009, 07:40:32 pm »

Hi Sauron,

when i read that i think  the Jaguar community is cursed... Each time nice people want to do something real, interressting about the Jaguar, problems appears.... But be sure, you're always welcome on Jagware !!



GT Smiley
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atarimuseum
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Posts: 10


« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 01:59:10 am »

 Angry   From what I stated the other day on Atariage...    Angry

... I rest my case.

 Angry


Curt

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doctorclu
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Posts: 187



« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 02:56:59 am »

You are preaching to the choir Curt, but the question is, what now?   Do we collectively say "There was never a Jaguar" and go back to our 8 bit computers, 2600, 5200, 7800, etc?

Tempting.

But the Jaguar is still fun.  Before the internet, there was the Jaguar.  Before we really had a "community" we had Jaguars.

JS2 has closed it's message areas.  They want to be in their own world.  That is probably for the best.  Atariage wants to talk about Jaguar basics, but not address other concerns.  That too is probably for the best.  And here, we talk openly about concerns that people are either unable to civilly talk about, or have the guts to deal with in that civil manner.

And how are things kept civil here?   Most here are of a similar mindset, and those that aren't don't care to be here in the first place.  Smiley

Bottom line, the Jaguar is fascinating, and to both Curt and Sauron, though you may not feel like doing so now, your input will be welcome here when you are ready to jump back in.

And for now, the rest of us will just have to show that fun can still happen.  Wink
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TheGrandPubaa
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Posts: 34


Cogito, ergo deleo.


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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 04:21:41 am »

Hey Curt, I just thought I would point out that there are quite a few people at JSII who think what you said wasn't a fair and accurate representation of the community. I happened to be one of the few that agreed with you, but I know several people would like it if you could stop by and have a little back and forth conversation so they can clear up some "misconceptions" of yours.

Just thought I would let you know that. Smiley

*edit- Don't blame you if you don't want to bother, though.
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I don't own a Jaguar anymore. Wanna give me a compelling reason to buy another one?
kgenthe
Jr. Member
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Posts: 70


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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 04:36:22 am »

I agree with Curt 100% and have spent a lot of energy the last couple of month's arguing the point. Sadly, all that debating led to nothing. A few people created this forum which has addressed all of my concerns. I am no longer a member of JSII and am not an active member at AA.

Someone had an awesome point, how talking about a rom for Tempest 2000 was morally wrong, but you could pay $40 to download the source code. Brilliant stuff, wish I could find who said it...

That pretty much leads me to where I am today. A jag community that is more or less BS free, and "feels" like every other normal console's community. I don't care if it's smaller. I really don't care how many forum accounts ReBoot makes, I don't care if members here experience new jag games via roms and emulation. And no one else does either Cheesy
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atarimuseum
Newbie
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Posts: 10


« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 06:34:21 am »

No, you never give up...   You need to work harder to change the atmosphere and environment.

Why it is on the Atari 2600, 5200, 7800, 8bit, even the Lynx platforms people code for the fun and enjoyment and freely release their games, maybe later sell them in cart format, but only as an after-thought...

Why on the Jag its all about "coders needing to recoup the costs for their time and effort"   Nobody told anyone they have to code on the Jag, nor that they have to be paid.    Why is it on the Jag their is this constant need to have to generate revenue from writing games as a priority... that in itself has been the major problem with the platform, causing everyone to be in this constant state of paranoia, that if they leak or release anything it'll affect their sales...

STOP SELLING JAG GAMES as a primary objective, if you don't want to code just for the fun of it, then don't code on the platform period - or do it for yourself, keep it to yourself and no one needs to see, hear or know about it.

Until this frame of mind and point of view comes to a complete stop, nothing else will ever change.   Jag enthusiasts need to learn by example and again - follow the 2600, 5200, 7800 and 8bit communities and take note and learn - THAT is how you should be a part of and support a platform.


Curt

You are preaching to the choir Curt, but the question is, what now?   Do we collectively say "There was never a Jaguar" and go back to our 8 bit computers, 2600, 5200, 7800, etc?

Tempting.

But the Jaguar is still fun.  Before the internet, there was the Jaguar.  Before we really had a "community" we had Jaguars.

JS2 has closed it's message areas.  They want to be in their own world.  That is probably for the best.  Atariage wants to talk about Jaguar basics, but not address other concerns.  That too is probably for the best.  And here, we talk openly about concerns that people are either unable to civilly talk about, or have the guts to deal with in that civil manner.

And how are things kept civil here?   Most here are of a similar mindset, and those that aren't don't care to be here in the first place.  Smiley

Bottom line, the Jaguar is fascinating, and to both Curt and Sauron, though you may not feel like doing so now, your input will be welcome here when you are ready to jump back in.

And for now, the rest of us will just have to show that fun can still happen.  Wink

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atarimuseum
Newbie
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Posts: 10


« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 06:43:35 am »

I've already emailed to Jason over at JS2, until he removes the "Iron Curtain" and takes down all of the walls and hidden area's, makes JS2 and open and public area for all - even the "bad guys" to view threads and messages, maybe even see some "secret code" being shared, until JS2 turns into an open place like Atariage and FreeJag, then I cannot participate because I'm not going to have discussions in a closed and secretive environment.

Also I informed Jason, it is time for him to pull out his sheriffs hat and badge and put his foot down and start locking flame threads and banning people, and keep doing it until a point is reached, either everyone is banned because they just can't act like an adult or people finally realize that if they want to contribute and participate in open and active discussions, they need to do so in an adult, mannered and respectful way to all persons and after a while that becomes the defacto norm and everyone is used to it.    That's how Atariage is run, sure sometimes a flame crops up, but its put out very quickly and a thread is locked and on a rare and extreme occassion to stop future offenses, the thread may have to be edited to remove a message in the thread.  Its not about censorship, its about removing hurtful and non-productive postings that caused a thread to be locked ni a first place.

So if Sheriff J. Smith cleans up JS2, gets things under a well controlled iron fist and lays down the law that JS2 will be a productive, open and cooperative place for all and he opens it up to all, including secret forums with stashes of code that will benefit one and all and has a ZERO tolerance for attacks, flames and outright baby bullsh*t, yeah I will most certainly come on over, I may even bring some Jag gifts with me to post up too.


Curt

Hey Curt, I just thought I would point out that there are quite a few people at JSII who think what you said wasn't a fair and accurate representation of the community. I happened to be one of the few that agreed with you, but I know several people would like it if you could stop by and have a little back and forth conversation so they can clear up some "misconceptions" of yours.

Just thought I would let you know that. Smiley

*edit- Don't blame you if you don't want to bother, though.
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atarimuseum
Newbie
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Posts: 10


« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 06:50:18 am »

Well if its $40 because you need to buy a copy of Jag Extremist that Jason spent a lot of time putting together and is selling a physical product, that is one thing, if it is actually paying $40 just to download a zip file, well hell I'll put a stop to that right now, here is T2K Source Code right here, download and distribute and post all over the friggin net:

http://www.atarimuseum.com/jagfiles/Tempest2KSources1-26-94.zip




Curt


I agree with Curt 100% and have spent a lot of energy the last couple of month's arguing the point. Sadly, all that debating led to nothing. A few people created this forum which has addressed all of my concerns. I am no longer a member of JSII and am not an active member at AA.

Someone had an awesome point, how talking about a rom for Tempest 2000 was morally wrong, but you could pay $40 to download the source code. Brilliant stuff, wish I could find who said it...

That pretty much leads me to where I am today. A jag community that is more or less BS free, and "feels" like every other normal console's community. I don't care if it's smaller. I really don't care how many forum accounts ReBoot makes, I don't care if members here experience new jag games via roms and emulation. And no one else does either Cheesy
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Fadest
Newbie
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Posts: 9


« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2009, 08:49:34 am »

[joke]
Why it is on the Atari 2600, 5200, 7800, 8bit, even the Lynx platforms people code for the fun and enjoyment and freely release their games, maybe later sell them in cart format, but only as an after-thought...
Thanks for citing the Lynx, I have sometimes the impression it is forgotten or belittled by atari fans Grin
Maybe this is a quiet scene, far less vocal than its feline sister, but still active and very friendly
[/joke]

Just to add one thing, not every Jaguar developer want to make commercial releases. Most of the recent releases have been in freeware form and people do not expect more than feedback and a bit of respect. For example, Do The Same is freeware, but if you like the game, the authors ask kindly to send a donate to a charity association (at least, for french people, because this is a french association, that go in hospitals with video game to play with small ill children).
But even if my way is to make free releases, like I did for Lynx, I still think choosing the mode of distribution is a question of freedom. I someone want to sell his game, so let him do. But I won't consider a commercial release as a greater effort than a free release. It's only the coder preference...
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sh3-rg
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Posts: 54


push the button today


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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2009, 10:52:35 am »

Well if its $40 because you need to buy a copy of Jag Extremist that Jason spent a lot of time putting together and is selling a physical product, that is one thing

I believe that's the case.


Wow, that was quite a surprise. Someone should move this somewhere else where it won't be lost in a discussion.

EDIT: Didn't realise it was an off-site link, still, Curt did say "download and distribute and post" so if the host allows it maybe that's possible?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 10:56:44 am by sh3-rg » Logged


_ __sh3/reservoir_gods^reboot___ _
SpiderJerusalem
Tech Group
Full Member
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Posts: 107



« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2009, 10:56:19 am »

Wow, that was quite a surprise. Someone should move this somewhere else where it won't be lost in a discussion.


On it Smiley
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You people don't know what the truth is! It's there, just under their bullshit, but you never look! That's what I hate most about this fucking city -- lies are news and the truth is obsolete!
ChrisTOS
Newbie
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Posts: 9


« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2009, 11:00:55 am »

The law of double standards!

Anyway, it's time the jaguar community stopped all this nonsense and become like everyone else, you don't have to differ in a bad way to be exceptional.

I was really sad to read Sauron's/Overlord's posting especially when I saw his dedication after interviewing him for Low Res. The freejag project needs to go on, offer what it was meant to offer and promote cooperation within the scene.

And fadest, I think you hit the nail in the wall there. An important part of what must be done is to promote sharing of information, not only between people of the various communities but also among the various communities themselves. It can be done, and it should be done.

P.S. Thanks for your input and the source code Curt. I am sure it will be a great resource to many Smiley


« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 11:12:56 am by ChrisTOS » Logged
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