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Author Topic: My views on Homebrews...  (Read 6054 times)
atarimuseum
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« on: September 25, 2009, 03:41:48 pm »

Hi All,

   I've been having a good conversation on JSII....   I decided that even though it is staying a private forum, that if I'm going to post on the Jag forum on Atariage and I'm going to post on the Freejag forums, that in all fairness that I also return to posting on JSII which is also important as now people on JSII also now more properly and clearly where I stand on my points of view, my disappointments with the Jag community and my suggestions on possible idea's for help.

   Now, Doug (Thunderbird) and I have been going back and forth.  Many know Doug is a formidable individual to argue with, as I am, so its a good productive exchange.

   Doug pointed out how I should point out some things, so let me make a very clear point for one and all:


1.   I do not, nor have I ever supported, or agree with or will side with anyone who condones or participates in the assisting of copying and/or posting of any homebrewers work on any platform.     On the Jaguar in particular I would consider that to start from Battlesphere forward since Battlesphere was independently completed and independently published by 4Play for the Jaguar.

Previously published games through Atari Corp and put out on the Jag, I have no comment or care for.   The companies were paid for their coding, Atari made their money from the sales of those games, the games are no longer made or sold for a platform no longer made or sold, so what happens with those titles is of no concern or care to me.   

My sole main concern is current, active homebrew authors titles and their rights.   ONLY the homebrewer authors themselves have the SOLE and EXCLUSIVE right to decide if/when or at all that their title should or could be posted for public usage.   It is their property and no one, no matter what their feelings, belief or views of another author - no matter the reason or cause (this is a NO EXCUSE RULE) should have the right to release another persons work.

I will not listen to for even one millisecond someone trying to justify the actions of posting another person's active homebrew title without the author's express written permission, there is ZERO justification.

NO:

"He was mean"
"They said bad things about us"
"They stole our code first"  (2 wrongs don't make a right, just makes bigger wrongs)
"They hurt our sales"
"we had the idea for that game first"

blah blah blah....  there is no excuse under ANY circumstances, if they killed your cat and punctured all the tires on your car, I don't care - it doesn't justify ANY reason to release another authors code without their permission.

So this post is to make my feelings EXCEPTIONALLY clear on this particular subject.


Curt



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TheGrandPubaa
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Cogito, ergo deleo.


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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 04:00:09 pm »

I agree.
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I don't own a Jaguar anymore. Wanna give me a compelling reason to buy another one?
Zerosquare
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 06:45:47 pm »

I'm sorry Curt, although I admire your honesty, I don't see the need for a "clarification".

- I've never seen you advocating the piracy of homebrew games in any of your posts. In fact, I've never seen anyone defending it. Even in Jagware (and everybody knows how much we disagree with Thunderbird).

- Thunderbird isn't the leader/president/authority/... of the Jaguar community. You don't owe him anything. His acute paranoia regarding piracy is his own problem, not yours or anybody else's. 
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atarimuseum
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 08:27:54 pm »

It seems my lack of such explicit explanations are to be interpreted as me agreeing with piracy and apparently for some reason, just because I post on this board, as well as on Atariage I am some how corralled into also being an advocate of piracy too.   So all I'm doing is taking away the tools of mis-communication by 500% explaining my position - now there is nothing further to argue and accuse me of.

I posted here in support of open reading of discussions regarding Jaguar support, whether that is just casual discussions on  things like "what was the first game you bought for your Jag" to "what is the limit of the GPU and how can I tap into it" and so forth... that's all I do advocate.

I've decided that I am going to support JSII and discussions there despite it being a closed forum, I posted there during its inception and I feel that if I am going to participate on the AA and FJP forums, that I should give equal time to JSII when I wish to get my "Jag fix" on :-)



Curt

« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 08:30:40 pm by atarimuseum » Logged
doctorclu
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2009, 11:07:29 pm »

Getting your Jag fix on eh?  Well I'm glad you are feeling better about a lot of people and with Jaguar.   

Yeh staying in touch with all is a good way to go if you can do it, and really between most of the people in all three places you can neutrally get along with most.
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Cyrano Jones
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2009, 12:56:21 am »

Curt,

I (and the rest of reboot) agree 100% with you on all of your above posts. However, there is also NO EXCUSE for an individual to appoint himself "King of the Jaguar" and attempt to lampoon any and all future productions by demanding stupid and pointless "features" be added or removed from new devices or face being threatened by LEGAL ACTION by him.

Curt, you owe him nothing. He's the one throwing wild and slanderous accusations around, not you.
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atarimuseum
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 01:55:45 am »

This post isn't about Doug & I to put it simply.   We had an interesting exchange of messages, I saw where he was repeatedly trying to equate my statements as some way of me advocating piracy and I decided to shut him down on that mistaken assumption he made by putting it so clearly that there is and never will be any doubt of it by him now or ever.

This post is just to clarify to one and all my views and stance on things.


I don't care if anyone views Doug as an Egomaniac dictactorship loving, power monger of the Jag world...

Nor does ANYONE, not I, not Doug, not a newbie out of the blue off the net who just feel in love with the Jag yesterday...   NO ONE has ANY right or say to dictate how ANY coder should write their games, or what to include/not include in them, whether it be text, features, colors, songs or anything...

That is called CENSORSHIP and its unreasonable to demand in books, songs, software or any other form of creative form and/or outlet.



HOWEVER --


Whether you agree or disagree with all, some or none of what I stated above, that gives NO ONE any right WHATSOEVER to sabotage, damage, copy, distribute or impede the release, sale or handling of another homebrew authors property.

That is like throwing a bucket of paint onto a Mona Lisa because someone hates the person who painted it, or their religion, or their political affiliation, or their friends, or their dog pee'd on their leg, they gave someone the finger, whatever.   

If someone hates a person, doesn't like the way they carry themselves, doesn't like how they code, doesn't like their haircut then verbalize your point of view, but don't take the anger out on that persons work, not only is it morally wrong, its honestly criminal as well.   Its the moral and mutually respectable aspect though that is the most important.



Curt



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atarimuseum
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 02:02:31 am »

demanding stupid and pointless "features" be added or removed from new devices or face being threatened by LEGAL ACTION by him.


I would need to see links and/or unedited cut&paste quotes of such "demands" and "threats" as you are claiming here.

How can someone threaten ANY form of legal action if you as an independent coder or product developer are making games or creating products on an open source platform that no one now owns and no one has any right to attempt to legally control.

So I'll have to see what you are claiming here to fill in the gaps on this as this I find rather odd and confusing to comprehend.



Curt

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Cyrano Jones
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2009, 02:10:12 am »

Curt,  while I have seen the proof of this myself, it would be up to the JagCF team if they wanted to share this with you. You are not the only one to find such behaviour odd and confusing to comprehend.
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Cyrano Jones
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 02:32:09 am »

And just to further clarify things, we again agree 100% with all that you have said.

All this drama is just that. POINTLESS DRAMA. We will be ignoring it all from now on. We just want to make games and have fun.

We won't be posting on this subject again. We've got better things to spend our time on.
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sh3-rg
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push the button today


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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 03:23:19 am »

HOWEVER --

Whether you agree or disagree with all, some or none of what I stated above, that gives NO ONE any right WHATSOEVER to sabotage, damage, copy, distribute or impede the release, sale or handling of another homebrew authors property.

If someone hates a person, doesn't like the way they carry themselves, doesn't like how they code, doesn't like their haircut then verbalize your point of view, but don't take the anger out on that persons work, not only is it morally wrong, its honestly criminal as well.   Its the moral and mutually respectable aspect though that is the most important.

Curt

Erm, so go tell that to Sergi as it is he who did the dirty deed.

While I understand where you're coming from with wanting to set the record straight about your stance on piracy, this kind of reads like you've bought into the Reboot are pirates crap started by Gorf & since proven to be false by Thunderbird. If it's just a coincidence that you made that point in reply to a Reboot member & coder then fair enough, sorry, this community has me all twitchy paranoid I guess Wink I'll get back to sleep & continue to ignore all the jagudrama...

Ignore the rest of this if you like, I'm taking the opportunity to say a few words while I'm thinking about these things again. This following stuff I'm just putting out there 'cause I've nowhere else to say it & really feel the need to deal with it now.

Just so anyone who reads this post on this open forum knows, the simple fact is there is only a single illegal copy of Mad Bodies on the whole internet that I know of, the one on Sergi's site that is a rom dumped by Sergi himself. That dump does not work on skunkboards but probably works on Alpines or Atari's own flash carts from what I have read from js2. What the hell that does or has ever had to do with anyone in Reboot I'd love to know but that stuff got said & ever since we've had all kinds of crap & tbh I'm fucking sick of it. Gorf had his reasons for saying it & from what I've gathered he's quite handy at throwing the word pirate around when he's on slightly dodgy ground in one of his many arguments, kind of a get out of jail free card.

True, Gorf has had issues with CJ since before Reboot was formed, maybe that was his reason for starting that story off, I don't know, to some extent I don't really care, but I do mind the fact that I've spent 16 years working on free atari games & have never had to put up with this kind of crap from other people making stuff or users before. If Gorf thinks that rom being there on that Russian site is the reason he's not sold enough games then that's his call, I personally think he overestimated just how many jaguar collectors are left, how many jaguar gamers are left or just how many people he might have upset over the years with his angry rants in forums that might have put them off shelling out so much on a (fairly expensive) homebrew game in a very difficult financial climate. Maybe some people just don't like the look of the game?! I read a figure of a $5000 investment.  Well, that might give someone cause to get angry, yes, but to make shit up & take out his rage on people he doesn't like?

No, I just don't see how it adds up because there's not loads of jag fans out there with suitable hardware that could even make use of the rom or have the inclination to suddenly abandon collecting & leave a hole in the collection. Yes, it's bad that it's there, and yes anyone could download it to their computer & if they were talented enough could probably fuck with it to make it work on a skunkboard or burn their own eproms or whatever someone might do if they were really that desperate to play Mad Bodies for free... and if that ever did happen or does happen, just how would that affect sales of a game unless someone were to put that version out or start selling actual physical pirate copies of the game & I don't recall seeing anything like that anywhere. If someone knows different, feel free to post the links.

So yes, all this drama has really left a sour taste in the mouth. Like I told Jay at JS2 before we were shown the door..

It's a 16 year old lump of plastic & silicon.

That's it - a simple games console.

It's supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be the reason for getting up out of bed in the morning nor is it something around which to plan one's existence on this planet. If some people took a few steps back & assessed just what has been going on & try to think for themselves why they are getting invloved & believing everything they are told, well... bah, fuck it, I've spent too much time thinking about this crap recently, I've really had enough for now. People believe what they want to believe, the truth doesn't always get a look in.

kevin
sh3-rg
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_ __sh3/reservoir_gods^reboot___ _
kgenthe
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 04:35:46 pm »

Curt, wrong forum buddy. You don't need to post long diatribes for people to know you are a stand up dude and not a low life thief.
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